How to use and set up nested subtasks?
I have a lot of meetings and I have to do a number of things before each one. How should I set things up?
Work projects
- Project A (once)
-- Prepare presentation (due date December 12 lead time 1 day)
-- Check with X about Y (due date December 14 lead time 1 day)
-- Read up on subject A (routinely, every 3 days, lead time 8 hours)
-- Meeting : calendar December 15 9.00, lead time 1 day
or
Work projects
- Project A (once)
-- Meeting : calendar December 15 9.00, lead time 1 day
--- Prepare presentation (due date December 12 lead time 1 day)
--- Check with X about Y (due date December 14 lead time 1 day)
--- Read up on subject A (routinely, every 3 days, lead time 8 hours)
The problem is I don't know the influence nested subtasks have on tasks and subtasks in the many possible combinations of scheduling (once, routinely, by due date, by calendar). A few are described in the Help file but I'm afraid that in some weird combination an important task will not appear at the scheduled time because some subtask wasn't checked off. Or is this impossible?
Ellen
RE: How to use and set up nested subtasks?
You are right that there are many conditions that could prevent a task with subtasks from ever showing up in the to do list.
If you have something important/time-sensetive, don't rely on Life Balance alone, fortunately LB let you add your tasks to Calendar. This way it will show up in Datebook and you can set up an advance reminder for that appointment in datebook.
RE: How to use and set up nested subtasks?
You are confirming that my qualms are founded...
One of the things David Allen insists on in GTD is the need for a truly trusted system. I agree totally. I suppose it does make some sense to consider that no system is absolutely fool proof and to have backup strategies for things that must not be missed. That is actually one of the reasons I've been using digital assistants since... the Newton. I can loose or break my Palm and not lose any data as I have a backup on the desktop computer. And my computer can go up in smoke as I have everything backed up on an external disk. And the whole house can go up in flames when I'm not home as the really really important stuff is on a USB flash drive that I take with me when I go out...
No, I'm not obsessive at all; what made you think that? :-)
Ellen
RE: How to use and set up nested subtasks?
The behavior isn't going to be as strange as you might fear; we can get very specific about this stuff.
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First of all, any 'by Calendar' or 'by Datebook' tasks will be displayed in the LB desktop calendars regardless of whether they are eligble to show up in the to-do lists.
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Any given task will only be eligible to show up in the to-do lists if it has NO unfinished subtasks. i.e., if you had
▼ Project A
.●Subtask 1
then Project A would never show up in the to-do lists until Subtask 1 was done.
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In situations where you've scheduled a subtask routinely, such as your "Read up on subject A," you need to keep in mind that a task that is going to repeat isn't considered really and truly done.
▼ Project A
.●Read up on subject A (Routinely)
Here, because "Read up on subject A" is set to repeat indefinitely, the parent never becomes eligible to show up in the to-do lists.
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The behavior would be very similar if the subtask were scheduled By Calendar/Datebook with any sort of repeat or with multiple instances.
▼ Project A
.●Read up on subject A (By datebook, multiple events)
The parent, Project A, wouldn't become eligible to show up in the to-do lists until all the instances of "Read up on subject A" were complete, regardless of the scheduling of said parent.
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If you use the 'Complete subtasks in order' option, the behavior is a bit different. In that case, the task that would be eligible to show up in the to-do lists would be the first unchecked subtask in the sequence. This would be true even if an earlier subtask were scheduled routinely or by calendar with upcoming events...
▼ Project A (Subtasks in order)
.●Read up on subject A (routinely, every 3 days, lead time 8 hours)
.●Check with X about Y
Here, Read up on subject A would show up in the to-do lists first. After you'd checked it off, there would be a period of 56 hours (3 days minus 2 lead times) before Read up on subject A unchecked itself again, during which Check with X about Y would be eligible to show up in the to-do lists.
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Since you didn't use the 'subtasks in order' option, either of your setups would work pretty well. I would choose the first one, because that way the meeting itself would show up in the to-do lists regardless of whether you'd completed all of the prepartory tasks, wheras your second arrangement has a subtask of the meeting scheduled routinely, which would prevent the meeting itself from ever appearing in the to-do lists.
My feeling is that it's unrealistic to depend on LB's to-do lists alone for hard landscape tasks such as the meeting itself. Even with your first arrangement of tasks, where the meeting has no subtasks and so will go into the to-do lists on schedule, what if its importance settings or the balance function drove it twenty tasks down the list, out of immediate sight? The calendar is a necessary component here, and you will need to cultivate (or maintain) the habit of checking it periodically. The Palm / Palm Desktop Alarm Preset feature really is handy for this stuff, too. Mine is configured to automatically set an alarm to sound/display 20 minutes ahead of every newly created calendar event, and this works even when said event is 'created' from within LB.
LB and a linked calendar are complementary tools. Especially for PDA-only users, it's tempting to hope that LB can be a substitute for a calendar, feeding you a perfect sequence of flexible and hard-landscape tasks. After all, it looks (on a PDA screen) like a totally independent program... but it's not.
RE: How to use and set up nested subtasks?
Thanks (again) for the very clear explanation.
>Here, Read up on subject A would show up in the to-do lists
>first. After you'd checked it off, there would be a period of
>56 hours (3 days minus 2 lead times) before Read up on subject
>A unchecked itself again, during which Check with X about Y
>would be eligible to show up in the to-do lists.
Now that is an interesting behaviour that I'm sure must baffle more that one user. I really don't see in what kind of situation I would need it.
>My feeling is that it's unrealistic to depend on LB's to-do
>lists alone for hard landscape tasks such as the meeting
>itself. Even with your first arrangement of tasks, where the
>meeting has no subtasks and so will go into the to-do lists on
>schedule, what if its importance settings or the balance
>function drove it twenty tasks down the list, out of immediate
>sight?
Exactly. That is why I feel it's useful for me to maintain a "Calendar" or "Hard Landscape" place in LB. It lets me see such tasks regardless of where LB thinks it should go in a long list and, considering my recent problems with broken links, it let's me check if any links may be broken. Also, I haven't given much thought to the effort and importance sliders yet. Nor have I tweaked the pie other than setting some slices to 2%. I set the importance to "essential" for all projects and the "effort" to average. I need to get the outline right before delving into these subjects. I do see it will be necessary as my "system maintenance" tasks seem to be taking up all my actual life...
>The calendar is a necessary component here, and you
>will need to cultivate (or maintain) the habit of checking it
>periodically. The Palm / Palm Desktop Alarm Preset feature
>really is handy for this stuff, too. Mine is configured to
>automatically set an alarm to sound/display 20 minutes ahead
>of every newly created calendar event, and this works even
>when said event is 'created' from within LB.
As a long time Palm user, checking the Date Book is an absolutely ingrained habit. I have my Palm at hand all the time. I often say it's my second brain. I don't think I could use the alarms the way you do. Most of my scheduled tasks are meetings that will take half a day or even all day sometimes. And many of them take place somewhere else in the city, not at my office. So I need to remember about them the last time I'm at my office before the meeting, which may be one or two days before, the morning before for an afternoon meeting, or the last working day of the previous week for a Monday meeting... Too complicated to set up. So the only way to go is to continue using the Date Book calendar as before. LB will just be a secondary reminder.
Now to try and get something done.
Ellen
RE: How to use and set up nested subtasks?
>Thanks (again) for the very clear explanation.
Again, I'm glad it was helpful. You're welcome.
>Now that is an interesting behaviour that I'm sure must baffle
>more that one user. I really don't see in what kind of
>situation I would need it.
I only use it in a few places, but I am glad it's there. A good example is a section of my outline that prompts me to do regular household accounting tasks, all of which repeat on diffent schedules but which also should be done in a fairly specific sequence:
▼ Regular accounting and budgeting
.● Pay outstanding bills, enter receipts in Quicken, review budget (routinely every week)
.● Reconcile bank statements (By calendar, last day of every month)
.● Review monthly budget, pay off debt if possible (By calendar, first day of every month
Any given subtask in this arrangement will only appear if the subtasks ahead of it have been done recently, which is appropriate here. Generally, though, I try to keep the outline structure as simple as possible, with a minimum of these complex dependencies. With routines that go on indefinitely like accounting or home maintenance, it can be worth getting fancier.
>Also, I
>haven't given much thought to the effort and importance
>sliders yet.
I think it's fine to ignore the effort sliders for as long as you like, but I'd recommend you ease yourself into using the importance sliders ASAP. You don't have to adjust them for every task and subtask. Generally I adjust them for independent tasks not related to larger projects. I also adjust the importance settings for whole projects, but I leave all subtasks of any given project set to essential. The reason I say you should start sooner rather than later is that, if you have a whole outline full of 'essential' tasks and then adjust one task's importance slider a single notch to the left, that task will plunge to the bottom of every to-do list. After all, it's got the lowest importance of any task in the outline, right? If you wait to start using this feature, you could easily find yourself needing to adjust dozens, or even hundreds, of importance sliders to get the to-do lists operating sensibly again.
FYI, since LB started as a PDA (Newton) program and then moved to the Palm platform long before there was any thought of a desktop component, and since PDA's have inherently limited screen real estate, the importance and place settings were put on the 'general' details tab because they are the most important settings to make use of.
RE: How to use and set up nested subtasks?
Jon,
I have gone through some parts of my outline to adjust the importance slider as you suggest. I find it a difficult concept. Important to what? My life as a whole? Depending on my mood, things may vary a lot... If I think of importance as something that changes over time, it may seem easier. For instance, at work, a project may be important this week because an important meeting is coming up while another project can sleep because the people involved are busy with other things. Is this a valid approach? Some meetings, for instance, may be "unimportant", but I'll have to be there anyway...
At home, it's even worse. Financial stuff needs to be done and can be considered "essential". But what about the recurring tasks (water the plants, mow the lawn, do backups, maintain outine, etc.) What does importance mean here? Importance to my life as a whole? Who knows... And errands? Mostly not very important, except food to keep us alive. But it does save time to do them when I'm near the appropriate store.
And what about all the GTD routine: process inbox, weekly review, etc.?
Writing this, I feel I may be confusing "importance" and "urgency". Or "importance" and "desire to do"...
I've moved some sliders to "rather" and "somewhat". Others are at "none" because I don't want to see them at all (Someday/Maybe). I'll have to see what it does to my lists. Tough going.
Ellen
RE: How to use and set up nested subtasks?
>Important to what? My life as a whole?
The basic idea is that you just need to ask the question "how important is this task to its immediate parent. If you look at the General tab of any task you'll see that it actually says Importance of (this task) to (parent task) is: (slider). Only TLIs, which have no parent task, ask you to indicate their importance to 'your life as a whole.' I may have thrown a conceptual wrench into the works for you by suggesting a setup that interposes the Tasks / Active Projects and Someday-Maybe containers between tasks, projects and the TLIs they are relevant to. Try this: with each task or project, ask yourself how important it is to the TLI it is filed in. Try not to leave anything at Essential, except maybe "take my lithium pills."
>Depending on
>my mood, things may vary a lot... If I think of importance
>as something that changes over time...
You were right further on, this is confusing importance and urgency. Try to set importances as if due dates were not involved, and handle urgency with other tools such as due dates and lead times, using that Someday-maybe section, or the @Waiting For place. Often, in situations where "the people involved are busy with other things," the only next action I'll have defined for "Project X" is something like "Project X committee is ready to proceed? (place = @Waiting For)."
>Is this a valid approach? Some meetings, for
>instance, may be "unimportant", but I'll have to be there
>anyway...
This is a tricky area. If you have to be there, it must be important for some reason. Of course there are always going to be things you are expected to participate in or be present for just because of your membership in a particular job or family (or cult :)), regardless of whether that presence helps you along some linear path towards a clearly defined goal. The answers here can be difficult, but this is one of those situations where asking difficult questions is useful. Remember that the whole reason you're looking at time / goal management systems is because you don't have the time to do everything. Some things you'd like to do or that other people want you to do will not get done when you or they hoped they would, if ever. Neither LB, nor Allen, Covey or any other guru or system can stop time, remove the need for sleep or let you be two places at once. Thus, unless you aren't very ambitious, questions of importance have to be addressed. If you don't do it yourself, you're only accepting defaults or deferring to other people. The inconvenient truth (Al Gore notwithstanding) is that you're likely to discover that making time for things that are important to you will necessitate saying no to some things that are important to someone else. Just remember that you are always the one driving the bus.
>At home, it's even worse. Financial stuff needs to be done and
>can be considered "essential". But what about the recurring
>tasks (water the plants, mow the lawn, do backups, maintain
>outine, etc.) What does importance mean here? Importance to my
>life as a whole?
Okay, back down to earth. Much of this stuff is directed at maintaining a status quo rather than pursing some goal on the horizon. That's a major reason I tend to group it all in it's own section of the outline. When considering importance for this stuff, I usually look at it in terms such as "What would be the consequences if this didn't get done promptly?" If the answer is "I would go to jail" then it might be very nearly 'essential.' If the answer was more like "my mother in law would shake her finger disapprovingly" then my slider would be set considerably further West.
>And errands? Mostly not very
>important, except food to keep us alive. But it does save time
>to do them when I'm near the appropriate store.
Yes, when I'm out running errands I switch my Palm to my Errands place and do everything that's in the same geographic area as the thing that drove me to head for the car in the first place, whether it's important or not. If one of these errands seems so unimportant that I don't feel I should do it even though I'll be right next door, then that's as good a time as any to delete the task from LB altogether.
>And what about all the GTD routine: process inbox, weekly
>review, etc.?
All of these tend to be pretty darn important.
>Tough going.
>
>Ellen
It won't stay that way. Sometimes you gotta take a nap.
RE: How to use and set up nested subtasks?
>I may have thrown
>a conceptual wrench into the works for you by suggesting a
>setup that interposes the Tasks / Active Projects and
>Someday-Maybe containers between tasks, projects and the TLIs
>they are relevant to. Try this: with each task or project,
>ask yourself how important it is to the TLI it is filed in.
>Try not to leave anything at Essential, except maybe "take my
>lithium pills."
I don't want to fiddle endlessly with separate settings for every task and subtask and sub-subtask. I'd like to have some default settings that make sense and only adjust a few sliders.
The first part of my outline looks like this now:
RE: How to use and set up nested subtasks?
>I don't want to fiddle endlessly with separate settings for
>every task and subtask and sub-subtask. I'd like to have some
>default settings that make sense and only adjust a few
>sliders.
>
I couldn't agree more.
>What do you think?
Your setup is structured just like mine, and since it works for me, I like it.
>For all simple tasks under Home tasks, it's almost the same if
>I ask myself how important each is to the parent "Home tasks"
>or to the TLI "Home/Personal.
Exactly.
>But for each subtask of a
>project like "Task 1 for project A", should I ask myself what
>the importance is to "Project A" or to the TLI
>"Home/Personal"?
My personal preference is to do neither of these, though the official llama answer, based on the way the software was originally envisioned to work, would be the former. My choice would be to adjust the whole project's importance, so where you've got
>
RE: How to use and set up nested subtasks?
>My personal preference is to do neither of these, though the
>official llama answer, based on the way the software was
>originally envisioned to work, would be the former. My
>choice would be to adjust the whole project's importance, so
>where you've got
(snip)
>
RE: How to use and set up nested subtasks?
>I have some (big) projects that have
>subprojects and thus the actual tasks are nested one level
>down. What importance should I give to Subproject (a)?
Here my advisory confidence falters a bit, because my nesting of projects like that is not extensive -- improbably complex battle plans, etc. Try it out, though. Try adjusting the importance of the subprojects, if you like, but I think you'll find it an extraneous exercise in most cases. If you want to force the tasks from one subproject to take priority over those from another subproject of the same super-project, you can do it by dragging the higher-priority subproject higher in the outline than the lower priority subproject. (Say that 5 times fast). All other factors being equal, outline order is a tie-breaker when LB is calculating to-do list order.
BTW, when I do use sub-projects, I use two question marks, instead of one.